brian draper interviews daniel lanois
Posted by Brian Draper Mon, 27/09/2004 - 10:12am
When U2's tenth studio album, All That You Can't Leave Behind, was released in October 2000, Brian Draper was asked by U2.com to interview the producer, Daniel Lanois. This is the resulting two-part interview, posted originally and exclusively on www.U2.com.
Daniel Lanois has been described by Rolling Stone as 'the most important record producer to emerge in the Eighties', following collaborations with artists such as Bob Dylan, Peter Gabriel and, of course, U2. His first meeting with the band came when they invited him and Brian Eno to co-produce The Unforgettable Fire. His flair for an atmospheric, experimental sound helped lend the album its beguiling ambience and move U2 on to a higher plane. In 1987 he collaborated again with Eno on The Joshua Tree, which won him a Grammy. In 1991 he was invited back as principal producer for Achtung Baby - which scooped another Grammy.
In 1989 Lanois released Arcadie, his debut album as a singer/songwriter. It was received warmly by the critics, as was his subsequent release, For The Beauty of Wynona.
In the first of a two-part interview with Brian Draper, Daniel Lanois remembers his roots, his first meeting with Brian Eno, and the highs and lows of working with a group of emerging superstars. He considers the role he played in making U2 the band they are today - and the chemistry that gave them all their collective genius.
U2.COM: Were you brought up with music ?
LANOIS: Yeah, it was in the family. My father and grandfather were violin players. I grew up with the very melodic - somewhat Irish - tunes that they played. Then I started playing. I was a lucky kid - that I found music, and poured everything into it.
U2.COM: Did you originally want to be an artist or a producer?
LANOIS: My first love was playing, and the recording was a way of documenting it. I never separated the two. But I never really had my own band like the U2 folks had - it was a gift that they had. They managed to find the right people very early on.
U2.COM: So how did you become a producer?
LANOIS: We had a junky old tape recorder around the house. We would horse around, do little recordings. It evolved into a little studio. We started recording local folk groups and bands. I just hit every step of the ladder, technically, and before we knew it we had a fully fledged studio.
U2.COM: You first met Brian Eno when he came to record with you?
LANOIS: Yeah, we met as a result of Brian hearing a tape I had worked on. He booked some studio time. We hit it off and made a lot of ambient records in the early Eighties. Brian was dedicated to whatever he was up to. He was driven. That was the biggest lesson I learnt from him - that ability to say, "This is important to me, and I'm going to bring it to a full finish."
U2.COM: Is there ever a danger that your role as producer takes on more importance than that of the artist? I mean, isn't it cheating to play about with a band and make them sound better than they really are?
LANOIS: I don't mind cheating, because making records is just smoke and mirrors to begin with. I don't have a problem with the philosophy of jiggery-pokery. We do that all the time - and have done all along. Artists
will lean on the producers or engineers to make some magic. Initially it has to come from the performance. But you try to optimise every situation and, whatever trick you need to pull technically to make things sound better, then more power to everyone.
U2.COM: How did you feel when you were first asked to get involved with U2?
LANOIS: I was thrilled. Brian Eno wasn't, because he didn't want to produce a band at that time. I said "Please, please will you introduce me to them!" So he agreed to have a meeting. And of course, Bono talked him into doing it..
U2.COM: Did you sense in that first meeting that they had something special about them?
LANOIS: I detected a spirituality that I have a barometer for anyhow. The feeling that I carry inside is probably my greatest tool and the one that I understand the least. I felt there was some kind of drive, some kind of power within those folks that resonated with me; and I believe they felt that from me, too. It's part of the sound that we make together.
U2.COM: Is that important, to connect with a band on a deeper level?
LANOIS: It is not talked about much, but it is ultimately the most important thing - the chemistry. It's naive to think that a producer will come in to the picture with just technical knowledge and good old-fashioned advice. I bring to the record what I grew up with, my desires, my hopes, my beliefs, my concerns about quality. Who I am as a person.
U2.COM: How significant for U2 is it that your paths met? Do we have you and Eno to thank for the U2 of today?
LANOIS: The Unforgettable Fire sound is something that Brian Eno and I had been working on for four years, and when we arrived in their camp, they were ready to embrace some new colours. It was a chance meeting, and they thought, "This is good timing - let's accept it as a gift, thank God, and move ahead." It was a little bit of fate working in everybody's favour.
U2.COM: Is there a tension between what you bring to U2 and what you're looking to bring out of them.
LANOIS: Yeah. It is a game of confidence. We got lucky with U2. The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree had a sound almost immediately. That instills confidence. If you come out of a weeks' work with the sonic pillars of your record, that's an amazing feeling. The band will feel like they want to do even more, to be even greater than they are. You get a sort of amplification.
"What is it that you do?" people say. My answer is, "I raise the spirit." It's beyond technique, it's beyond anything you can describe or dissect. Music is absolutely spiritual and healing. That doesn't mean it has to be serious; it means it's got to make you jump out of your seat and be glad to be alive. Even if it's just a little romantic song, or a really heavy song, it needs to perform that duty. That's why we love rock and roll.
U2.COM: How much of U2's work in the studio really is pure gold?
LANOIS: It comes to pushing the envelope. Bono will always try and write a better lyric, or come up with a better melody, a better performance. So you owe it to them to investigate everything. But you have to be objective and say, "this" is the melody - even though we have some other nice things, let's go with that.
U2.COM: How do you cope if things get confrontational?
LANOIS: The response happens along the way. If you come in with a lot of commitment, as Brian and I do, an opinion is not ever taken lightly. Wenever get a flat-out disagreement, like "This is crap and the other thing's great." But there'll be a lot of philosophical discussions going late into the night.
U2.COM: Is it hard to know when to stop tinkering with an album or a song?
LANOIS: It's very difficult. Sometimes limitations are your friend, while options are the enemy of a record.
U2.COM: Do you end up compromising, or is everybody happy in the end, including you?
LANOIS: There have been a couple of compromises along the way. Not many. Usually it means that a song will not be included. That's the best thing that can happen. The worst is that someone will have a big investment in it - then people like to see a return. Each record we've done with U2 has had one of those tracks. On this last record, we were convinced that a couple of tracks were the rock songs we needed, so they got a lot of attention. But they did not make the finish line. Whereas 60 or 70 per cent of All That You Can't Leave Behind happened very quickly.
It's a funny old thing - maybe it's U2's way of staying spontaneous. Make your errors in private, then put out something that's fresh.
U2.COM: Do you panic if it feels like it's not coming together?
LANOIS: You have mountains and valleys in any creative process, and it's the same with U2. There are going to be some things that shine and other things that are laboured. Labouring can be dreadful - it knocks the wind out of everybody and it brings a dark cloud over everything.
But if you didn't have the dark clouds then you wouldn't be able to see the brightness - and the genius. We like to think we're geniuses now. Just not all the time.
----
In the second part of our exclusive interview with the co producer of All That You Can't Leave Behind, Daniel Lanois talks to Brian Draper about capturing the chemistry of U2, the search for musical innovation, wanting to find the 'heart' in the new record, a song on the album that he wasn't that wild about - and the one that he's proudest of.
U2.COM: How do you deal with the pressure that comes when working with the biggest band in the world?
Lanois: One of the things to remember is that you have a great band with four people in it - which is a rare commodity, particularly in the way that records are put together now. You have to step back and see that here are four people who can deliver an amazing performance. Let's not forget that - no matter how much time we pour into building a track, we re-perform it once we have a plan.
U2.COM: Do you keep one eye on how something will sound live?
Lanois: Absolutely. Sometimes the innovation is so strong, there's such a sonic scape there, that you build around it and try to "introduce" performance. Sometimes things drag, so we put the band back in the room, everybody close together, to get that U2 sound. It's an amazing thing - you can be working on something under the microscope for days, and then they'll go back in the room and it's like there's glue - it's wonderful, that.
U2.COM: Are you under pressure to come up with a sound that will sell?
Lanois: I don't think the pressure is ever commercial. The pressure is to be innovative - to come up with something fresh, exciting, a new way of looking at things. Especially at this place in the history of music. We've got 50 years of electric guitar behind us, and we've got to be innovative. That's tough. Edge has always managed to do it. Even on this record, he's come up with a few new sounds that are very impressive.
U2.COM: How do U2 approach the recording process these days?
Lanois: Bono will write lyrics separate from music. He stockpiles them. Then it's a matter of marrying those current thoughts or philosophies to music. Sometimes Brian Eno and I will start something on our own in the morning in the absence of U2. They'll waltz in and think, "Oh that sounds kind of interesting, let's play along" - and there's combustion. Bono will respond and start singing melodies, then words. We spend a lot of time bashing things around and waiting for the moment of magic.
U2.COM: And when it arrives?
Lanois: It's the best! The room lights up, and everybody knows that there's something special going on.
U2.COM: Can you listen to and enjoy an album that you've produced, or are you too close to it?
Lanois: It takes a couple of years to get to that place. But I have enjoyed the records that I've made. Bob Dylan's Time Out of Mind, as ragged as it might be, is one of those. It sends chills up the spine. And I feel that way about the U2 records. Maybe the odd track comes around that's a little juvenile.
U2.COM: So how did you feel when you were asked back to produce All That You Can't Leave Behind, having not been involved in POP ?
Lanois: The timing was good. I think everybody missed the chemistry. And it was a lovely thing to do.
U2.COM: How did you approach it?
Lanois: We did not plan a sound, but we were all in agreement that this "had" to be a record that U2 were playing on. Ultimately, people respond to heart. We knew we had to get that with this record. We've got four people with big hearts, and if you can't get it on the record then you're making a mistake.
U2.COM: Are you pleased with All That Can't Leave Behind?
Lanois: Yes, I'm 90 per cent pleased. There's probably one song on there that I would rather was not.
U2.COM: Do tell.
Lanois: This is where I get into trouble! Walk On. That song went through many chapters of evolution, and in my opinion it was better a few steps back. It was put together with a lot of welding. Brian Eno and I had advised U2 that it may not be the one to be chasing. It turned out pretty good in the end, but I still have the battle scars.
U2.COM: What are you most proud of?
Lanois: I'm a big fan of Beautiful Day - probably because I was instrumental in breaking the back of it, coming up at a certain point with a vocal melody with the Edge. Eno manipulated it to the point where we sounded like a boys' choir. When you get something like that, and it suddenly sounds uplifting, it's one of those little gifts where you think, my God, we've got it!
U2.COM: There's a lot of reference to being uplifted on the album.
Lanois: Yeah, it's a thing that Bono's going through, and I believe in it 100 per cent. It's about, "Let's live life, let's maximise what we've been given here." A 'beautiful day' is a simple way of describing it. It's almost so far away from angst that it falls into the same hole. It's like saying, " Fuck you! We're going to enjoy ourselves." I have to admire his lust for life. It's like, "Life is short: I want to see beauty, optimism, children; I want to leave this planet better than the way I found it." It's the ultimate punk attitude, and I admire it. I think he got it on the record.
U2.COM: Do you wish you had the success of U2 in your own right - as an artist?
Lanois: I can make as much music as I want, and have it heard by as many people as I choose to. It's a matter of revving up the engine and believing in it and doing it. Sometimes I need to refuel, and I regard production, on a selfish note, as refuelling. Especially if I'm working with great, imaginative people - it's like going back to university for a new course.
Right now I'm in the mode of being the artist. I'm gonna work on a record and put something out that hopefully will be special. Steve Lillywhite is here, and we've been listening to some of my songs. I'm feeling very enthusiastic now, thanks to his excitement. I don't have the rock-star inclination that other folks do. I don't need to be embraced by the entire world all the time. Maybe that's not a good thing. That sort of hunger makes you want to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But I have something inside of me now. And if it's not out by spring, well. It'll be out by fall.
Daniel Lanois has been described by Rolling Stone as 'the most important record producer to emerge in the Eighties', following collaborations with artists such as Bob Dylan, Peter Gabriel and, of course, U2. His first meeting with the band came when they invited him and Brian Eno to co-produce The Unforgettable Fire. His flair for an atmospheric, experimental sound helped lend the album its beguiling ambience and move U2 on to a higher plane. In 1987 he collaborated again with Eno on The Joshua Tree, which won him a Grammy. In 1991 he was invited back as principal producer for Achtung Baby - which scooped another Grammy.
In 1989 Lanois released Arcadie, his debut album as a singer/songwriter. It was received warmly by the critics, as was his subsequent release, For The Beauty of Wynona.
In the first of a two-part interview with Brian Draper, Daniel Lanois remembers his roots, his first meeting with Brian Eno, and the highs and lows of working with a group of emerging superstars. He considers the role he played in making U2 the band they are today - and the chemistry that gave them all their collective genius.
U2.COM: Were you brought up with music ?
LANOIS: Yeah, it was in the family. My father and grandfather were violin players. I grew up with the very melodic - somewhat Irish - tunes that they played. Then I started playing. I was a lucky kid - that I found music, and poured everything into it.
U2.COM: Did you originally want to be an artist or a producer?
LANOIS: My first love was playing, and the recording was a way of documenting it. I never separated the two. But I never really had my own band like the U2 folks had - it was a gift that they had. They managed to find the right people very early on.
U2.COM: So how did you become a producer?
LANOIS: We had a junky old tape recorder around the house. We would horse around, do little recordings. It evolved into a little studio. We started recording local folk groups and bands. I just hit every step of the ladder, technically, and before we knew it we had a fully fledged studio.
U2.COM: You first met Brian Eno when he came to record with you?
LANOIS: Yeah, we met as a result of Brian hearing a tape I had worked on. He booked some studio time. We hit it off and made a lot of ambient records in the early Eighties. Brian was dedicated to whatever he was up to. He was driven. That was the biggest lesson I learnt from him - that ability to say, "This is important to me, and I'm going to bring it to a full finish."
U2.COM: Is there ever a danger that your role as producer takes on more importance than that of the artist? I mean, isn't it cheating to play about with a band and make them sound better than they really are?
LANOIS: I don't mind cheating, because making records is just smoke and mirrors to begin with. I don't have a problem with the philosophy of jiggery-pokery. We do that all the time - and have done all along. Artists
will lean on the producers or engineers to make some magic. Initially it has to come from the performance. But you try to optimise every situation and, whatever trick you need to pull technically to make things sound better, then more power to everyone.
U2.COM: How did you feel when you were first asked to get involved with U2?
LANOIS: I was thrilled. Brian Eno wasn't, because he didn't want to produce a band at that time. I said "Please, please will you introduce me to them!" So he agreed to have a meeting. And of course, Bono talked him into doing it..
U2.COM: Did you sense in that first meeting that they had something special about them?
LANOIS: I detected a spirituality that I have a barometer for anyhow. The feeling that I carry inside is probably my greatest tool and the one that I understand the least. I felt there was some kind of drive, some kind of power within those folks that resonated with me; and I believe they felt that from me, too. It's part of the sound that we make together.
U2.COM: Is that important, to connect with a band on a deeper level?
LANOIS: It is not talked about much, but it is ultimately the most important thing - the chemistry. It's naive to think that a producer will come in to the picture with just technical knowledge and good old-fashioned advice. I bring to the record what I grew up with, my desires, my hopes, my beliefs, my concerns about quality. Who I am as a person.
U2.COM: How significant for U2 is it that your paths met? Do we have you and Eno to thank for the U2 of today?
LANOIS: The Unforgettable Fire sound is something that Brian Eno and I had been working on for four years, and when we arrived in their camp, they were ready to embrace some new colours. It was a chance meeting, and they thought, "This is good timing - let's accept it as a gift, thank God, and move ahead." It was a little bit of fate working in everybody's favour.
U2.COM: Is there a tension between what you bring to U2 and what you're looking to bring out of them.
LANOIS: Yeah. It is a game of confidence. We got lucky with U2. The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree had a sound almost immediately. That instills confidence. If you come out of a weeks' work with the sonic pillars of your record, that's an amazing feeling. The band will feel like they want to do even more, to be even greater than they are. You get a sort of amplification.
"What is it that you do?" people say. My answer is, "I raise the spirit." It's beyond technique, it's beyond anything you can describe or dissect. Music is absolutely spiritual and healing. That doesn't mean it has to be serious; it means it's got to make you jump out of your seat and be glad to be alive. Even if it's just a little romantic song, or a really heavy song, it needs to perform that duty. That's why we love rock and roll.
U2.COM: How much of U2's work in the studio really is pure gold?
LANOIS: It comes to pushing the envelope. Bono will always try and write a better lyric, or come up with a better melody, a better performance. So you owe it to them to investigate everything. But you have to be objective and say, "this" is the melody - even though we have some other nice things, let's go with that.
U2.COM: How do you cope if things get confrontational?
LANOIS: The response happens along the way. If you come in with a lot of commitment, as Brian and I do, an opinion is not ever taken lightly. Wenever get a flat-out disagreement, like "This is crap and the other thing's great." But there'll be a lot of philosophical discussions going late into the night.
U2.COM: Is it hard to know when to stop tinkering with an album or a song?
LANOIS: It's very difficult. Sometimes limitations are your friend, while options are the enemy of a record.
U2.COM: Do you end up compromising, or is everybody happy in the end, including you?
LANOIS: There have been a couple of compromises along the way. Not many. Usually it means that a song will not be included. That's the best thing that can happen. The worst is that someone will have a big investment in it - then people like to see a return. Each record we've done with U2 has had one of those tracks. On this last record, we were convinced that a couple of tracks were the rock songs we needed, so they got a lot of attention. But they did not make the finish line. Whereas 60 or 70 per cent of All That You Can't Leave Behind happened very quickly.
It's a funny old thing - maybe it's U2's way of staying spontaneous. Make your errors in private, then put out something that's fresh.
U2.COM: Do you panic if it feels like it's not coming together?
LANOIS: You have mountains and valleys in any creative process, and it's the same with U2. There are going to be some things that shine and other things that are laboured. Labouring can be dreadful - it knocks the wind out of everybody and it brings a dark cloud over everything.
But if you didn't have the dark clouds then you wouldn't be able to see the brightness - and the genius. We like to think we're geniuses now. Just not all the time.
----
In the second part of our exclusive interview with the co producer of All That You Can't Leave Behind, Daniel Lanois talks to Brian Draper about capturing the chemistry of U2, the search for musical innovation, wanting to find the 'heart' in the new record, a song on the album that he wasn't that wild about - and the one that he's proudest of.
U2.COM: How do you deal with the pressure that comes when working with the biggest band in the world?
Lanois: One of the things to remember is that you have a great band with four people in it - which is a rare commodity, particularly in the way that records are put together now. You have to step back and see that here are four people who can deliver an amazing performance. Let's not forget that - no matter how much time we pour into building a track, we re-perform it once we have a plan.
U2.COM: Do you keep one eye on how something will sound live?
Lanois: Absolutely. Sometimes the innovation is so strong, there's such a sonic scape there, that you build around it and try to "introduce" performance. Sometimes things drag, so we put the band back in the room, everybody close together, to get that U2 sound. It's an amazing thing - you can be working on something under the microscope for days, and then they'll go back in the room and it's like there's glue - it's wonderful, that.
U2.COM: Are you under pressure to come up with a sound that will sell?
Lanois: I don't think the pressure is ever commercial. The pressure is to be innovative - to come up with something fresh, exciting, a new way of looking at things. Especially at this place in the history of music. We've got 50 years of electric guitar behind us, and we've got to be innovative. That's tough. Edge has always managed to do it. Even on this record, he's come up with a few new sounds that are very impressive.
U2.COM: How do U2 approach the recording process these days?
Lanois: Bono will write lyrics separate from music. He stockpiles them. Then it's a matter of marrying those current thoughts or philosophies to music. Sometimes Brian Eno and I will start something on our own in the morning in the absence of U2. They'll waltz in and think, "Oh that sounds kind of interesting, let's play along" - and there's combustion. Bono will respond and start singing melodies, then words. We spend a lot of time bashing things around and waiting for the moment of magic.
U2.COM: And when it arrives?
Lanois: It's the best! The room lights up, and everybody knows that there's something special going on.
U2.COM: Can you listen to and enjoy an album that you've produced, or are you too close to it?
Lanois: It takes a couple of years to get to that place. But I have enjoyed the records that I've made. Bob Dylan's Time Out of Mind, as ragged as it might be, is one of those. It sends chills up the spine. And I feel that way about the U2 records. Maybe the odd track comes around that's a little juvenile.
U2.COM: So how did you feel when you were asked back to produce All That You Can't Leave Behind, having not been involved in POP ?
Lanois: The timing was good. I think everybody missed the chemistry. And it was a lovely thing to do.
U2.COM: How did you approach it?
Lanois: We did not plan a sound, but we were all in agreement that this "had" to be a record that U2 were playing on. Ultimately, people respond to heart. We knew we had to get that with this record. We've got four people with big hearts, and if you can't get it on the record then you're making a mistake.
U2.COM: Are you pleased with All That Can't Leave Behind?
Lanois: Yes, I'm 90 per cent pleased. There's probably one song on there that I would rather was not.
U2.COM: Do tell.
Lanois: This is where I get into trouble! Walk On. That song went through many chapters of evolution, and in my opinion it was better a few steps back. It was put together with a lot of welding. Brian Eno and I had advised U2 that it may not be the one to be chasing. It turned out pretty good in the end, but I still have the battle scars.
U2.COM: What are you most proud of?
Lanois: I'm a big fan of Beautiful Day - probably because I was instrumental in breaking the back of it, coming up at a certain point with a vocal melody with the Edge. Eno manipulated it to the point where we sounded like a boys' choir. When you get something like that, and it suddenly sounds uplifting, it's one of those little gifts where you think, my God, we've got it!
U2.COM: There's a lot of reference to being uplifted on the album.
Lanois: Yeah, it's a thing that Bono's going through, and I believe in it 100 per cent. It's about, "Let's live life, let's maximise what we've been given here." A 'beautiful day' is a simple way of describing it. It's almost so far away from angst that it falls into the same hole. It's like saying, " Fuck you! We're going to enjoy ourselves." I have to admire his lust for life. It's like, "Life is short: I want to see beauty, optimism, children; I want to leave this planet better than the way I found it." It's the ultimate punk attitude, and I admire it. I think he got it on the record.
U2.COM: Do you wish you had the success of U2 in your own right - as an artist?
Lanois: I can make as much music as I want, and have it heard by as many people as I choose to. It's a matter of revving up the engine and believing in it and doing it. Sometimes I need to refuel, and I regard production, on a selfish note, as refuelling. Especially if I'm working with great, imaginative people - it's like going back to university for a new course.
Right now I'm in the mode of being the artist. I'm gonna work on a record and put something out that hopefully will be special. Steve Lillywhite is here, and we've been listening to some of my songs. I'm feeling very enthusiastic now, thanks to his excitement. I don't have the rock-star inclination that other folks do. I don't need to be embraced by the entire world all the time. Maybe that's not a good thing. That sort of hunger makes you want to keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. But I have something inside of me now. And if it's not out by spring, well. It'll be out by fall.
